I’m a little puzzled to be informed that Brother David and I - who are Carmelite religious, but don’t belong to the Discalced branch of the family - are less traditional than those who do. Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts. A while back I posted about Third Orders. Read up on St. John of the Cross and St. Theresa of Avila. Or can I ask how I, as a Carmelite, am less “traditional”? The Discalced Carmelite Nuns Monestary is located 1100 Parthenon Place New … But anyway, to answer the question, discalced are the more traditional of the Carmelites (they used to not wear shoes). Secular (lay) Discalced Carmelites may wear shoes and live their promises of poverty according to what is appropriate for their state in life. Every vestment of the priest is clearly delineated in the Roman Church, from the head down. is the Order of teh Brothers of the Blessed Virgin Mary of Mount Carmel . That is defining us by the reform. I've never seen Franciscan priests not wearing shoes during mass, but always sandals. Everyone is welcomed to Roman Catholic Mass in their chapel: Monday – Friday 7:00 a.m. Evening Prayer: 5:30 p.m. Saturday & Sunday 7:30 a.m. The question, if ask, should be how are the Discalced Carmelites different from the Carmelites. For example, although “discalced” means “shoeless,” the nuns do wear sandals or simple shoes with socks in order to face Michigan's winters. The followers of St. Clare at first went barefoot, but later came to wear sandals and even shoes. These congregations are often distinguished on this account from other branches of the same order. This thread is archived. I know the Discalced came from a reform in the order and have a different rule I do believe, but what else? Well, actually, there are two flavors of Carmelite: The Carmelites of the Ancient Observance, which you might call the “original Carmelites” and the Discalced Carmelites, which technically means the “Carmelites who don’t wear shoes”, although now a days they generally do wear shoes. Only if they’re in New Orleans! … I know of a Disclaced cloister where habits are never worn and the sisters wear albs to Mass. Men join because they want to live and work with these people. What’s the difference? I can not comment on the Discalced constitutions as constitutions are mostly private and kept within the Orders. Read More. “Discalced” means “without shoes” and was the term used by people to describe groups that went about reforming religious orders to follow more strict rules, as they often would not wear shoes, but only sandals. The Discalced Carmelites were established by St. Teresa of Avila in 1562 and St. John of the Cross in 1568 to renew the Order’s commitment to contemplation, simplicity and community. From what I have read, the austerity of Discalced Carmelites is noticeably different from that of the ordinary Carmelites. Discalced simply means “unshod.” “Calceus” is the Latin for “shoe” and “dis” means “without.” When St. Teresa began her reformed branch of the Carmelites, she wanted a life of greater poverty and so instead of wearing shoes, which were very expensive at that time, and still are, she decided that her Nuns and Friars would wear … runs. DISCALCED ORDERS. So I guess I am saying that the correct term to use would be “more strict” rather than “more traditional”. report. It is Teresa. I just joined the ocds in Buffalo and the nuns wore shoes!!! In the 1560’s, she created the Discalced Carmelite branch of the Order. With the help of the Carmelite friar, St. John of … She wrote a set of constitutions for this. Discalced is a term applied to those religious congregations of men and women, the members of which go entirely barefoot or wear sandals, with or without other covering for the feet.These congregations are often distinguished on this account from other branches of the same order. Calced Carmelites and Teresians wear identical habits, consisting of a brown tunic and scapular, and a … The sisters have two constitutions and the house choses which one they will follow. The biretta, the alb, the surplice, the maniple, the stole, the girdle, &c. are all specifically required. The Minim friars and Capuchins followed in this practice. That’s the term I’ve heard. (Other footwear would include steel-toed work boots.). One such order is the Carmelites. The Habit of the Discalced Carmelites “Since we belong to a family specially dedicated to our Lady, we wear the habit of her Order as a sign of our consecration.” - Constitutions 79 The Tunic and Cincture From time immemorial, the first hermits on Mount Carmel wore a Their quite big monastery in Czerna was founded in 17th century. First. :shrug: I didn’t mean it in the sense of “traditional” and “liberal” (as it stands today), though, unless when I first heard it, I misunderstood… I meant it in that St. Therese (or was it St. Teresa? The custom of going unshod was … Yet you do use that term to describe us when you speak of us along with the reform. How are the Discalced more “traditional”. :rolleyes: Contrary to what the name might imply, OCDS are allowed to wear shoes, though habited Discalced Carmelites will be found in sandals. The differences between the two orders seems to be largely historical. We O.Carm.s, as Brother has stated above are called either the Carmelites of Ancient Observence or Brothers of the Blessed Virgin Mary of Mount Carmel. St. Teresa of Avila and St. John of the Cross, while being members of the Discaled reform were members of the Carmelites of Ancient Observernce. As for the Doctors. The word "discalced" came from a Latin word meaning "without shoes," because the nuns went barefoot or wore sandals instead of shoes with stockings. There is also a Carmelite Web site. Today it almost goes down to the individual friar or sister. in the Old Testament bare feet symbolized reverence for the … So sandals would be at the least appropriate. The wearing or not wearing of shoes has nothing to do with tradition and does not appear in our Rule anywhere. In no rite of any apostolick expression of Christianity are shoes ever required for the functions of a priest. That can hardly be called “traditional” or, IMHO, even “strict”. Discalced orders signifies religious orders in the Christian Church whose members, both men and women, are barefooted or who wear sandals with or without covering for the feet (Lat., Discalceati; It., Scalzi; Fr., D é chauss é s; Ger., Barf ü sserden). what do Carmelites wear? We are never called Calced Carmelites. That is something that should not be done. Discalced is derived from Latin, meaning "without shoes". According to those approved in 1991, the habit may be a modified version, but it must have at least the brown tunic and full-length scapular, and a black or white veil. I wonder what the rubrics of the Carmelite Rite say? Becoming a permanent part of this family of Discalced Carmelites — whose quarters are cloistered, whose shoes are sandals and whose life is devoted to prayer — is not a simple decision. share. But anyway, to answer the question, discalced are the more traditional of the Carmelites. 8 comments. Could you perhaps elaborate upon that? .Catholic AnswerThat is entirely up to the individual bishop, unless he happens to be a Discalced Carmelite - Discalced Carmelites are not permitted by their constitutions to wear shoes. By the way, although the title of your thread seems reasonable enough, the correct titles for the two branches of the family are Carmelites of the Ancient Observance (Order of Carmelites or O.Carm, to which I belong) and Order of Carmelites Discalced or OCD. The Discalced Franciscans or Alcantarines, who prior to 1897 formed a distinct branch of the Franciscan Order went without footwear of any kind. The thread title says it all pretty much. Discalced Carmelite Seculars are members of the Carmelite family of the 16th century reform of St. Teresa of Jesus. What is the difference between the Calced and Discalced Carmelites. Discalced definition, (chiefly of members of certain religious orders) without shoes; unshod; barefoot. It later included the friars but did not in the beginning. Discalced means shoeless. /r/Catholicism is a place to present new developments in the world of Catholicism, discuss theological teachings of the Catholic Church, provide an avenue for reasonable dialogue amongst people of all beliefs, and grow in our own spirituality. In 1580 the reformed monasteries were made a separate province under the prior general of the order, and in 1593 this province … The third order affiliated to the Discalced Carmelites is the Secular Order of Discalced … Wear the little brown cloth scapular. But the question has already been answered. The original Carmelites are described as ‘calced’ (wearing shoes), while discalced Carmelites went barefoot. The name itself signifies the Order’s strict standard of austerity — “discalced” derives from the Latin discalceatus, meaning “barefoot” (like many Franciscans, these Carmelites took their vow of poverty so seriously that they refused to own or wear shoes). Powered by Discourse, best viewed with JavaScript enabled, : The views and opinions expressed in these forums do not necessarily reflect those of Catholic Answers. I think proper vesting for any Mass would require shoes of some sort. I think their USA office is in Washington DC. These followers are present in the modern world as friars, enclosed nuns and Seculars. See more. I thank you for your understanding and apologize if I came off harsh at all. Sort by. According to both approved Constitutions of the Order, Discalced Carmelite Nuns are required to wear the Carmelite habit. The followers of St. Clare of Assisi at first went barefoot, but later came to wear sandals and shoes. The Discalced Carmelite Fathers came to Munster after World War II and built a shrine to make Poles feel more at home. But anyway, to answer the question, discalced are the more traditional of the Carmelites (they used to not wear shoes). Discalced means "shoeless". The Carmelites have a rich tradition of spiritual guides – unarguably some of the best in the Church! For official apologetics resources please visit. Emphasis would be for married person to live in simply in a spirit of detachment to possession. The Carmelite Nuns smile alot and dispite their title of "discalced" some did wear shoes. Similarly, what is the meaning of Discalced Carmelites? 91% Upvoted. The 11 million Cubans resemble unshod Carmelites, separated from the world yet intensely aware of it. Her goal was to create a reform of the Carmelite Order (not create a new Order) that was more strict in following the Rule. False. Even when it's hot, In my experience, they wear sandals, which are the normal footwear for their habit. However, there have been a number of great mystics among the Discalced branch, including 3 Doctors of the Church, so their spiritual heritage could be said to be more eminent. “I always wear sandals (without socks) 365 days of the year,” Mother Anne said. Your question is one that is frequently asked, and I’d refer you to this thread: forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=333843. We do not know who our original founders are so we look to the Prophet Elijah and the Virgin Mary as our spiritual founders. ** That can hardly be called “traditional” or, IMHO, even “strict”. Traditionally, Carmelite nuns wear their undertunics, a well-made garment of wool or cotton/polyester with long sleeves and fastened in the front with Velcro or snaps, as a nighttime garment, along with a night scapular and night-toque to cover the head. - footwear is not a good way to tell your Carmelites apart these days. A Cuban congregation was founded in 1702 and has been a … This most likely would have happened with the Discalced if it was not for the outside actors (the bishops and papal legates) who caused issues between the Order and the Discalced and eventually caused a rift and a split in the Order. The Carmelite Order, from which the Discalced Carmelites branched off, is also referred to as the Carmelites of the Ancient Observance to distinguish them from their discalced offshoot. St Teresa's followers wore sandals rather than shoes, a practce which distinguished them from the Carmelites of the Ancient Observance. Carmelites are contemplative, focusing on study and the development of spiritual understanding. The Discaled did not become an order of their own until a year or so after the death of St. John of the Cross. We both follow the Rule of St Albert. The sisters have two constitutions and the house choses which one they will follow. hide. However, the original order has continuity on its side. St. Teresa’s followers wore sandals rather than shoes, a practice which distinguished them from Carmelites of the Ancient Observance. The differences will be found within our constitutions. Barefoot Carmelites is more common name for Discalced (from latin: without shoes) Carmelites . They are more enclosed(when compared to ordinary Carmelites) and put a larger emphasis on personal austerity(they don't wear shoes much, if it all, and have a much more regimented day and prayer). Franciscan priests do not, but are permitted to wear sandals in extremely cold weather. save. The word “discalced” actually means “barefooted” or “shoeless.” Although originally the Discalced Fathers did not wear shoes and went about barefoot, St. Teresa of Jesus moderated their austerity by … Because Reformed Carmelites wore sandals in place of shoes and stockings, they came to be called the Discalced, or barefooted, Carmelites, to distinguish them from the older branch of the order. I think proper vesting for any Mass would require shoes of some sort. Catholic Christianity offers the world the fullness of the Christian Faith. When she lived within a non-reform house (which she did as superior for a time) she did not make them follow her reform. Discalced Carmelite friars and nuns continue to wear sandals as long as weather and work permits it. A: Carmelites are dedicated, interesting, happy, and holy people who do a lot of great things. New comments cannot be posted and votes cannot be cast, More posts from the Catholicism community. I always get the two mixed up) wanted to go back to the way the early Carmelites were. Discalced is a term applied to those religious congregations of men and women, the members of which go entirely barefoot or wear sandals, with or without other covering for the feet. We value their writings and study them but they are not our founders, they are our sister and brother. ** I know of a Disclaced cloister where habits are never worn and the sisters wear albs to Mass. Today I do not think there is much difference between the Orders, even with the cloistered Discalced sisters. In the ancient Hebrew times, shoes were expressly forbidden. :rolleyes: Were the nuns wearing sandals or “real” shoes? Do Discalced Carmelite priests wear shoes when saying Mass? Of all people, you would think that I would know the answer to this, but I don't. To be a Carmelite is to be a part of something bigger than yourself. Actually, all kidding aside, you all are about right. The nuns’ day begins at 5:25 a.m. with Morning Prayer ( Lauds ) from the Liturgy of the Hours, the official prayer of the Church, followed by personal prayer time at 5:45 extending until … Only one of those three you are talking about is a Discalced Carmelite, that would be St. Therese of Lisieux. The Carmelites have a long history of reforms within the order but every reform (until the Discalced) were integrated into the Order after some time. They have a great bookstore, which is where I got the collected writings of St. John of the Cross. Surely to their Province. Located in best place possible, on steep slopes of Eliaszówka valley, surrouded by forests, of which most are protected since 1989 in nature reserve "Dolina … Especially in my area…shrug: Dis calced Carmelite is barefoot, but Dat calced Carmelite is not. Maybe to their priory or cloister. Well, actually, the Carmelites … One of the biggest differences is that the Discalced look to St Teresa of Avila and St John of the Cross as founders while the Carmelites do not. The Discalced Franciscans of Spain (known as Alcantarines, who formed a distinct branch of the Franciscan Order before 1297) went without footwear of any kind. Thank you for explaining that, Brother David. Contemplative sisters of the Order of Discalced Carmelites, which was founded in Spain, emulate the life of Saint Teresa de Jesús , also known as St. Teresa of Avila. ICS Publications. Besides not wearing shoes, what are the differences between Discalced Carmelites and the regular Carmelites (Carmelites of the Ancient Observance)? The original Carmelites are described as ‘calced’ (wearing shoes), while discalced Carmelites, or Teresians, went barefoot. I prefer the discalced to the o’carms. Well, actually, there are two flavors of Carmelite: The Carmelites of the Ancient Observance, which you might call the “original Carmelites” and the Discalced Carmelites, which technically means the “Carmelites who don’t wear shoes”, although now a days they generally do wear shoes. New comments cannot be posted and votes cannot be cast. Discalced Carmelites observe a stricter lifestyle and rule. Press J to jump to the feed. The Carmelite charism is constant prayer, especially contemplative prayer, which is a deep divine intimacy that calls us through solitude into community. Today I do not think there is much difference between the Orders, even with the cloistered Discalced sisters. Just one more side note, the official name of the O.Carm. Today saying someone is more “traditional” than someone else in religious life is an insult to the one that you are implying is less “traditional” hence my and Br Mike’s reactions. Carmel of the Immaculate Heart of Mary Salt Lake City, Utah Carmel of the Mother of God This poverty was manifested in many ways, but one of the best-known ways was that the Discalced Carmelites did not wear shoes. At the risk of being very pedantic (!) I also realize that one is never called a “Calced Carmelite;” I merely used that term for the sake of convenience in order to distinguish the ancient order from the reformed one. Discalced Carmelite Seculars come from all walks of life, from every … I believe it’s true to say that both Orders hold the Rule of St. Albert as THE Rule of each; what will differ are The Constitutions which form the respective members (Friars, nuns, Lay Carmelites and Secular Discalced Carmelites) in our day.